Discussions Archive

When the site was migrated to a new secure platform in March 2021, previous threads on the Local History Discussions page were not appearing. Whilst I continue to try and solve the problem, I have retrieved them from the Disqus site and copied them to this page (they actually look better in my opinion!). The page is static and not linked to Disqus, so the time periods since posting (which appear after people's names) should be referenced to March 2021. I have separated topics using a shaded background.

Norman Jackson 2 months ago

Jean, thank you for finding Margaret Rebecca in the 1901 Census, which I have now added to the census collection link on the page. I had included the 1911 Census sheet that had a Rebecca Wilkinson, who seemed likely to be John's mother, but hadn't spotted that it was the home of her sister Elizabeth, which of course confirms it - thanks again. I have now updated and re-worded parts of John Wilkinson's War Memorial page. I also had another quick look to see if I could discover what happened to Margaret Rebecca but couldn't find anything. Complicated by the fact that she may have been using just Rebecca as a first name. I'll continue to search and let you know if I find anything further. Perhaps the 1921 Census will help when it is released in January 2022.

Jean Woodhouse 2 months ago
Re- your article on John Wilkinson who died during 1st World War. His mother, Margaret Rebecca is actually visiting her sister, Elizabeth, at Warcop (on the census 1911) and was working as a Housekeeper at Bow Hall, Dufton after she had John. (Census 1901). I can't find out what happened to her after that.

Norman Jackson 5 months ago

I have recently added a link to the Local History page for a book by James Clarke published in 1789, which Google have digitised. It is entitled 'A Survey of the Lakes of Cumberland, Westmorland and Lancashire'. Ullswater and surrounding areas are covered on pages 22 to 42. One of the many interesting topics, describes how the Church Warden would pay a bounty for the 'heads of noxious animals' - the tally for one particular week in 1759 was; 15 Foxes, 7 Badgers, 12 Wild Cats, 9 Martens and prodigious numbers of Eagles and Ravens.

Norman Jackson last year

Christopher Darvill and I are pleased that the information was helpful to you in your Family History research and really appreciate that you took the time to tell us. As you can imagine it took a lot of time and effort to transcribe, research and collect the information, so whenever we hear that it has helped someone, it reminds us that it was all worthwhile,

Jane Hawkes last year
Thank you so much for sharing so much of this local history. I greatly appreciate the information which has helped me in my family history search.

PatterdaleToday 2 years ago

John, Thanks for the two newspaper cuttings. I too recall a story about the jewellery going missing at the time of the accident but can't remember where I read it (it may well have been from you!)

John DA 2 years ago
Hi again, I have found an item of interest about Mr Selfridge of the famous department store visiting the Lakes in 1911. here are two newspaper articles about a crash they had while coming down Kirkstone Pass. I did find another article about Mrs Selfridge loosing £1500 of jewellery in a vanity case in the crash and it was never recovered, but i cant remember where the article is now.

Norman Jackson 3 years ago

Thanks John, that has saved me many hours searching the old newspapers in the Library. Very interesting and hadn't realised that two dogs had been trapped.

John DA 3 years ago
Norman here is a link to the full story its 1948. http://lakelandhuntingmemories.com/B_BNew.html

Norman Jackson 3 years ago

Jean, thank you so much for identifying more of the people on the photo and the extra details. I have added this to the description alongside the photograph. If anyone knows the date a little more accurately (say to within 2 or 3 months), I could look for a write up in the C&W Herald, which may give all of the names.

Jean Woodhouse 3 years ago
Hello there, My Dad lived in Patterdale (he was a Wilkinson from Deepdale Hall). I sent him the photo of the terrier rescue. He says, the terrier rescue, was on Little Dodd near Hartsop, the terrier is held by Joe Wear on his left is Eddie Poole's father Johnnie. Behind them is my Uncle Billy and next to him is Anthony Barker. I think they spent two weeks or more digging rock before it was rescued. Uncle Billy, was William Wilkinson.

Norman Jackson3 years ago

Lizzy, did you ever manage to find out when the Hotel was built? We are trying to date various photographs in our Joseph Lowe collection and the presence or absence of prominent buildings is a real help.

Norman Jackson 4 years ago

Lizzy, After posting the comments last night, I remembered that the Cumbria Archives hold building plans and applications, many going back to the mid 1800's. I did a little searching on CASCAT

http://www.archiveweb.cumbr... and found two items that might be of help to you.

Archive centre: Kendal

Reference: WSRDWW

Title: West Ward Rural District Council

Description: Minute books of West Ward Rural Sanitary Authority / council and committees

Date: 1873-1935

Generally these Council folders include many sub-folders, such as the Surveyors Dept. Planning files. Some other council folders I have looked at on-line show a list of each application but this one didn't. Even if it is just the Minutes, they should include application granted. It is probably worth a trip to the Kendal Archives as that is where Patterdale/Glenridding archives are kept.

I also came across this record for the death of Sarah Wood's husband James in 1892. Wills can be very descriptive. It would be worth phoning the archive to see if they would print it out for you.

Archive centre: Carlisle

Reference: PROB/1892/W887A598

Title: James Wood, hotel keeper, formerly of Lyulphs Tower (Game Keeper) but last of Temperance Hotel, Glenridding, Patterdale, Barton, Westmorland

Description: Carlisle District Probate Registry wills. Copies of wills can be obtained from the Carlisle Archive Centre. Please note: photocopies of letters of administration and associated probate documents are not currently available. Please contact Carlisle Archives for more information.

Date: 1892.

I also found the Probate Index entry which adds a little more detail.

WOOD James of the 'Temperance' Hotel in Glenridding, Patterdale, Westmorland, hotel keeper died 23 September 1892 at Hutton Grange, Cumberland. Administration (with Will) Carlisle 16 December to Sarah Wood Widow. Effects £1068 1s 2d.

Hope this helps. Norman

Norman Jackson 4 years ago

Lizzy, First of all, sorry for the delay in responding - I've been away from home. Looking at the 6inch OS Maps, the hotel is not there in 1860, although buildings which could be Rose Cottage and Bridge House are shown. The hotel is shown on the 1897 map. As you say, the Kelly's 1894 Directory lists Mrs Sarah Wood as running a First Class Private Hotel etc, although I've never come across a reference to Woods Hotel. In the 1901 census, it is listed as the Temperance Hotel with William Milcrest named as the Hotel Keeper (Rose Cottage and Bridge House are listed as separate Boarding Houses run by Wm Kilner and Christiana Lake respectively). By 1911 it was of course called Milcrest's Hotel but still described as a Temperance Hotel. Interestingly, the 1891 census shows a Temperance Hotel but only one occupant, Robert Bownass who was the father of Thomas Bownass (keeper of the Ullswater Hotel at that time). When Thomas Bownass was baptised in Dec 1860, his father Robert was described as a Hotel Keeper of Glenridding House. It would be worthwhile you looking through the Parish Registers, as you can find peoples occupations and properties and various other dates. For example, my quick look revealed:

William Milcrest was running the Temperance Hotel in May 1897 but was a Butler at Grisdale Bridge in May 1893, so that gives some indication of when he acquired the hotel from Mrs Woods.

Mrs Woods doesn't appear in either the 1891 or 1901 census.

Confusingly, there are two Bridge House entries in the 1881 Census but one of them is described as a Temperance Hotel.

Penrith Library has a great collection of old newspapers on microfilm - browsing though these you might find adverts for the hotels, events held there, or, even announcements of name changes or new owners. My 'guess' is that it was built in the late 1880's. I'll keep digging and let you know if I find anything more. By the way, when you have finished researching the history of the hotel, please consider adding it to our local history section (a dedicated page fully attributed to you). Good Luck,Norman

Lizzy Ali 4 years ago
Hi Patterdale Today, I was hoping you could help me. I'm researching the history of The Glenridding Hotel. I can see in 1894 it was Woods Hotel. I'm trying to find out when it was built and if it was always a hotel. I understand Rose Cottage was owned by John Wilson in 1894 and then William Kilner until 1935 and past to his nephews Grenfell after he died but I can't find anything after that. Was it renamed? When did it become apart of the Glenridding Hotel. Bridge House I see has a lot of history and there were a couple of buildings called Bridge House. So I wonder if you could help me distinguish which Bridge House was the one that is now attached to the hotel. I have so many questions and I apologise in advance. I'm just finding this very fascinating and if you could help me piece the jigsaw, I would appreciate it. Thank you in advance. Liz

John DA 4 years ago

Hello Norman, I have the digitised copies of The Records of Patterdale, and Elizabeth Little's book too, but have not had chance to read through them both properly, I will have to make some time. Another thing i did read in E Little's book was a mention of the Druid Stone in the wall next to the White Lion.. I have walked past that wall many times but there is only one large stone in it that has nothing to suggest anything to do with Druids. I though the stone might have been near to where the water pump used to be and has now gone. Thanks for your help John D-A

Norman Jackson 4 years ago
John, The footpath that leads up from the White Lion Car Park takes you past a boggy area known as Mill Moss and just before the path opens onto the fell, there are the remains of a sluice gate. There is a photograph in the un-indexed section of our Joseph Lowe collection which shows villagers ice skating on Mill Moss. The British Library inventory, which was published by the HMSO in 1936, doesn't define where the centre of the village is - Mill Moss is in a SE direction from the Church and Grisedale Bridge. I don't know the location of the Mill and I'm not aware of any ruined doorways or mill-wheel that are still around. There are still a few people in the village who would have been here in the 1930's, I'll make further enquires. The Rev Morris, in his book The Records of Patterdale, published in 1906, describes on Page 148, a famous flour-mill at Hartsop but makes no mention of one in Patterdale. Elizabeth Little's Chronicles published in 1961, makes a small mention of there being a mill at Patterdale in 1217. Digitised copies of these books can be viewed through the link on our Local History Index Page.

John DA 4 years ago

I have been reading some items on the British History on Line Website and noticed and item mentioning a MILL in Patterdale Quote " (45). Mill, about 620 yards S.E. of the middle of the village, has a doorway with the date and initials 1706 D. (?) L. The mill-wheel is still in position. Condition—Ruined." Here is the link to the web page :- http://www.british-history....I have never heard of this Mill before when i have visited Patterdale or Glenridding. Can anyone tell me if this is correct and still there. ? Cheers John D- A

Vivien Barton 4 years ago

Hi Alison, it seems we may be related. I am the granddaughter of Leonard Brown who was the cousin of Frank, and found this information in PatterdaleTODAY as they had a 100 year commemoration of the start of WW1. My grandfather married Mary Hicks. I never met either of them as they died before I was born. I have drawn a blank on any more information on Leonard but found a photo on the site of my grandmother Mary who I had not seen before. My dad was called Stanley Brown, he had 2 brothers Alan & Harry. Fascinating stuff this geneology isn't it!

Private William Stanley Brown 3rd Battalion, Durham Light Infantry Born around August 1890, Patterdale. Died 5 May 1953, Lancaster Aged 62

Son of John and Sarah Ann (nee Wilcock) Brown, Grisedale Bridge and Brookfield Husband of Mary Elizabeth Pears, Crookabeck Farm.
William Stanley Brown was the youngest of three children born to John Brown, a Joiner and Carpenter, and his wife Sarah Ann (nee Wilcock). In 1891, the family were living at Grisedale Bridge in Patterdale. We believe William’s father John was the son of David Brown and Ann Pattinson, who had 9 children, many of whom lived in the Dale, meaning William is likely to have attended Patterdale School alongside many of his cousins, including Frank Brown, David Brown and Robert Brown. By 1901 the family had moved to Laburnum Cottage in Glenridding and William’s older brother Leonard (15) was already working as an apprentice joiner to his father. The family had moved back to Grisedale Bridge by the time the 1911 census was taken and William was also working as a Joiner in the family business. By this time his sister Ada (born 1888) had moved to Manchester where she was training to be a nurse. On the 9th December 1915, at the Wesleyan Chapel in Patterdale, William married Mary Elizabeth Pears, the daughter of Robert Pears of Crookabeck Farm. When he married, William stated his occupation as a Joiner and a Private in the 3rd Bn. of the Durham Light Infantry and his address was in South Shields. There is a degree of uncertainty as far as his military service is concerned, we know he had enlisted before December 1915 into the 3rd Bn. of the DLI - this was a reserve Battalion, which remained in South Shields as part of the Tyne Garrison. The only medal card we can find for a William S Brown in the DLI shows a service number of 18/662, this was for the 18th Battalion (which was raised in South Shields) but saw action in Egypt, the Somme and Ypres. The card shows that he was awarded only the British War Medal, which means that he left the shores of Britain at some time but did not enter a theatre of war. However this does not tie in with reports made in the Cumberland and Westmorland Herald during the war, which report a William S Brown from Glenridding being first gassed in December 1917 and then wounded in September 1918. So it it obvious that William did see some action alongside his cousins, including Robert Brown who also served in the Durham Light Infantry. William was commemorated on the Glenridding Village Hall Roll of Honour alongside his cousins Robert and David Brown, and other cousin Frank Brown who tragically lost his life in the war. After the war William and Mary Elizabeth stayed in Glenridding, living initially at Rookings in Patterdale. The Kellys Directories, show that his father John was still operating a Joinery business from his home at Ullswater View but by 1925 the name had changed to Leonard Brown and Co. (Builders) at Brookfield and was still trading under that name in 1938. However it is a mystery as to exactly what happened to William’s brother Leonard as he does not appear on any of the electoral rolls from the Parish from 1920 to 1939, so it is possible he died. William’s mother Sarah Ann died in early 1930, at the age of 75 and was buried at Patterdale on 6th January. At this point it looks as though William and Mary Elizabeth moved in with his father John at Brookfield, where they remained until the outbreak of World War Two. John died in 1942 at the age of 87 and was buried alongside his wife at Patterdale on 5th March 1942. It appears that when they retired William and Mary Elizabeth retired to Lancaster, where William died in May 1953 at the age of 62. If you can add any more details to the story of William and his family then please let us know.

Alison McCosh 5 years ago
Hi to the researchers of this amazing site. My family have deep roots in Patterdale, and my Parents, Grandparents, Great grandparents and possibly further back still are all buried/interred in St Patricks churchyard. At present I am researching my family and have found many mentioned and pictured through your site. I am related to the Brown family and enjoyed reading the articles about Frank Brown and discovering all the work that had been done on my family. I would like to put one record straight, if that is possible. In the burial records of St Patricks, entry number 69 on the burial record for April 1994 to November 2014 reads incorrectly. It is the record of my Mothers death and she was called ALVIN MCBRIDE. I am not sure what the comments should be - my Father wrote them, and he died three months later. I would imagine they would read either - Ashes only, or possibly some reference to High Rake , as that is where my mother was born. Thank you again for this wonderful resource which I spend hours studying. I do have one old photograph of my family, which was taken around 1905, and features Frank Brown at the age of about 9, with his parents, grand mother and other siblings. I would be delighted to send you a copy, with the details I was supplied with, if it is of any interest.

Guy Richardson 5 years ago

Hello – a couple of months ago I queried the naming of the ridge Hartsop Above How. I have since been in contact with Ordnance Survey who have kindly done some research into this and copied various documents for me. Originally in 19th century Hartsop Above How and Patterdale Below How were subdivisions of Patterdale parish and were named on the first OS maps. In summary what then happened was that the name Hartsop Above How was moved west so that it did not go over the sheet edge of the later one inch and two and a half inch maps. This led to readers of the map thinking the name referred to the ridge. The OS accepts that “the name was not properly positioned on all readily available maps”, but on the basis that guide book writers and compilers now consider the ridge to be named Hartsop Above How, the OS in the 1976 resurvey accepted it as the hill name. A curious circularity! The only person in the local community consulted about the ridge name appears to have been the National Trust warden. Anyone who is interested to see the OS information please contact me at: gnmr35@btinternet.com Regards, Guy Richardson

Norman Jackson 5 years ago

It may well have been a mistake by OS in repositioning the name onto the ridge. Even Wainwright thought it was wrong! To quote from his 1955 Eastern Fells book describing Hartsop above How: "Most natives of Deepdale know it not by this name ..... but as Gill Crag, which fringes the summit, and this would seem to be a more satisfactory name for the fell. But one cannot so wantonly ignore the authority of the guidebooks and maps; and the name Hartsop above How ..... will be used here in support of the Director General of the Ordnance Survey"

PatterdaleToday 5 years ago

Guy, Good question and observation. As you say, the old 6in OS maps (the 1859, 1897 and 1913 maps can be viewed through the links in the Local History section) all show Hartsop above How as a large area just south of Brothers Water, whereas the latest OS maps have the name on a feature (the ridge above Dovedale). The old maps also show Patterdale below How as a large area just north of Grisedale but the name doesn't appear on the new maps. I have asked Elizabeth Clark, who is a member of the Hartsop Society and has a keen interest in Local History. She told me that there are two views about the origins of 'How'. First is that "how" is derived from the Anglo-Saxon word 'hob' which means a heel or projecting ridge of land (there was an Anglo Saxon invasion of the area and the hill does look like a heel). The second view is that it is Norse (Scandinavian) in origin and has been derived from "haugr" which means mound or hill.

The censuses perhaps gives more insight, as initially they split the dale into two areas;

Hartsop above How and Patterdale below How in 1851 and 1881.

Patterdale above How and Patterdale below How in 1861 and 1871.

The border between these two areas varied slightly but was mainly around Goldrill Cottage/House (where the present Youth Hostel is). Could the 'How' in question be Arnison Crag or perhaps Dubhow Crag to the east? It would be interesting to look at OS maps after 1913 to see when it changed from being an 'administrative area' to a feature.

Guy Richardson 5 years ago
Hello, is the ridge marked on current OS maps as Hartsop Above How an OS error? I notice that the 1881 census returns, for example, has parishes Patterdale Below How and Hartsop Above How and that the 19 century 6" maps have Harsop Above How covering the broad area south of Brothers Water. Also any idea which is the 'how' the Below and Above refer to?

Alison McCosh 5 years ago

Just seen the picture on Frank Browns page - looks amazing. Thank you. Just so you know, the two girls Mena and Alvin were family names - their full names were Alvinza and Wilhemina.

Alison McCosh 5 years ago
No other pictures that I know of, but I will investigate through other members of the family.

Norman Jackson 5 years ago
Alison, Thanks for the photos. The quality is good and I have placed the family group picture on Frank's War Memorial page. I think the picture was probably taken on the 2nd April 1905 - baby Johns Christening. You wouldn't happen to have a better quality picture of Frank in Uniform? The one I got from the the newspaper is better than most but a sharper one would be good.

Alison McCosh 5 years ago
Norman, hopefully attached are three photos! One is the family photo I have, with Frank Brown bottom right. Second picture is of the writing from the back, which show the names of all the family members. The third is a screen shot of my family tree, with Alice Brown as the centre person. She was my Grandmother. Please let me know if you get the pictures and if they are of a good enough quality.

Norman Jackson 5 years ago

Alison, first of all thank you for your kind words about the site. As a Genealogist myself for over 40 years, I know how helpful village websites have been to me in my research. Chris Darvill and I have done most of the research for the Local History section and always welcome comments, additions or corrections. Chris undertook the huge task of transcribing the Parish Registers and Gravestones, so I will leave him to reply about the Burial Register entry (he may even have an image of the page). I researched and wrote the piece about Frank Brown, so I would certainly be pleased to see (and use) the photograph of him aged 8 with his family.

Alison McCosh 5 years ago
Hi to the researchers of this amazing site. My family have deep roots in Patterdale, and my Parents, Grandparents, Great grandparents and possibly further back still are all buried/interred in St Patricks churchyard. At present I am researching my family and have found many mentioned and pictured through your site. I am related to the Brown family and enjoyed reading the articles about Frank Brown and discovering all the work that had been done on my family. I would like to put one record straight, if that is possible. In the burial records of St Patricks, entry number 69 on the burial record for April 1994 to November 2014 reads incorrectly. It is the record of my Mothers death and she was called ALVIN MCBRIDE. I am not sure what the comments should be - my Father wrote them, and he died three months later. I would imagine they would read either - Ashes only, or possibly some reference to High Rake , as that is where my mother was born. Thank you again for this wonderful resource which I spend hours studying. I do have one old photograph of my family, which was taken around 1905, and features Frank Brown at the age of about 9, with his parents, grand mother and other siblings. I would be delighted to send you a copy, with the details I was supplied with, if it is of any interest.

marion elliott 6 years ago

I found this website while trying to find where my family lived in Patterdale and I have been so appreciative of the response and information I have received. THANK YOU for the time taken to research and respond to my requests. My family was John Harrison who lived at Side Cottages and worked in the lead mines..... marion